Tuesday, March 18, 2008
POLITICS-US: Anti-War Grannies Arrested Trying to EnlistBy Matthew Cardinale
These Grandmothers for Peace were formally arrested shortly after the photo was taken. Credit:Gary Cameron/IPSATLANTA, Georgia, Mar 17 (IPS) - As part of actions across the United States to mark the fifth anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, 10 "Grandmothers for Peace", ranging in age from 57 to 80, were arrested Monday while trying to enlist in the United States Army. Acts of civil disobedience are planned this week in at least 17 other U.S. cities.As exclusively observed by IPS, the Grandmothers for Peace entered the Army Recruiting Station at the Midtown Place Shopping Centre in Atlanta, Georgia at around 9:30 am. The women broke up into three groups, each approaching a different recruiter's desk to engage them in questions. "When do you get the bonuses? Do you get them right away?" a Grandmother asked. "You guys are on a fishing expedition to catch people in lies," declared one recruiter, who said her name was "Ms. Reed". "What we're doing is, we're very much against the Iraq war. We'd like for you to let us enlist," said Bobbie Paul, 58, executive director of Atlanta Women's Action for New Directions. "We have to make sure people are physically pre-screened," said a recruiter named Kevin Wells. "Could we enlist today? So the youth don't have to go? Can you give us a list of jobs?" Paul persisted. "There are regulations we have to follow, set by the government, as far as entry and recruiting," Wells responded. "Would you take me? I'm 80," said Doris Benit of Kennesaw, Georgia. "Me personally? Absolutely! But as far as the Army, there is a process," Wells answered. "What's the first step?" Benit asked. "The first step is to have a seat," Wells said. Then, the 10 grandmothers all took seats around his desk. Meanwhile, dozens of activists were beating drums and chanting outside under a banner that read, "Take Us, Not Our Grandchildren!" "We need an application," said Gloria Tatum, 65, of the Georgia Peace and Justice Coalition, Atlanta. "I believe in action. You're doing what you can. I'm doing what I can. We're in the same direction. This country is the greatest in the world. There's many ways to do things. I'm very passionate about this country and worry where it's going. It needs you. It needs me. It needs that young man over there [IPS reporter]. It needs that kind of passion," Wells said. Then, "I want everybody outside!" Reed shouted, after calling for backup and talking with her supervisor. Finally, the Atlanta Police Department showed up. "People have 10 seconds to get off the property because it's private property or else you'll be arrested immediately," one police officer said through a loudspeaker. "We're grandmothers -- it takes us 10 seconds just to get our bones coordinated," commented Rev. Sylvia Carroll of the First Iconium Baptist Church, who was one of the 16 "support grandmothers" who did not get arrested. "I feel great. I think we made a statement this war needs to end now. [President George W. Bush and Congress] have broken international law... [and] trashed the Constitution," Tatum told IPS before getting arrested. "The police officer told me, you should take care of yourself. I've lived a full life. I want these young men to be able to do the same. We have nothing against these young people. We don't want them to die," Benit said. "I think it was a great success, in the sense we were able to stay in there as long as we were and having an exchange. We kept 'em occupied, to draw attention to ourselves. We refused to leave until they told us we were arrested," added Dot Shaw, 73, of Snellville, Georgia. "Anyone in charge?" the police asked as the women stood downstairs chanting, waiting for a police van to take them away. "We're not a battalion," Paul responded. "We insist! We enlist! Grandmothers for Peace!" they chanted. "We protest! We're under arrest!" "We're cold out here, so take us in," Benit told Officer "C. Mac." "What's jail like? Is it warm?" "Okay, hello everyone... I'm against this war as much as you. However, we still have to conduct business as usual. We have to restore a level of normalcy. We have received complaints," Officer Mac told the Grandmothers. Betsey Miklethun, 74, of Norcross, Georgia, read a letter she had written to her grandchildren before getting arrested. "This week marks the fifth anniversary... I'm gonna cry because I love them so much... of the war and occupation of Iraq. Much could be said about this, from me to you. Today I plan to participate in a nonviolent act of civil disobedience. I've never done this before," Miklethun said. "Somebody's got to stand up and say, I care." IPS asked an Army spokesperson why the Grandmothers for Peace were not allowed to enlist. "They were turned away because they were disrupting business," said Tim Humphreys, public relations for the Atlanta Recruiting Battalion. "Anyone who is serious about enlisting in the Army can go to Army.com to fill out the paperwork and can schedule an appointment. These ladies apparently were not interested in that," Humphreys said, adding the age limit is 42. Susan Keith, a board member of Atlanta Progressive News, did bring an application with her to the Recruiting Centre. "You're trying to ask a loaded question," Humphreys said. Humphreys did not return a phone call from IPS seeking additional comment. The Atlanta Police Department confirmed the arrest of the 10 Grandmothers for Peace. The women were charged with criminal trespassing, and taken to Fulton County Jail. They are expected to post bond by this evening. The crime, a misdemeanor, could carry a maximum of one year in jail, although a judge could use his or her discretion, Officer Eric Schwartz said. "They didn't say anything about them being disruptive," Schwartz said. "The owner of the property has the right to tell them they do not want them there. We don't determine whether the reason the owner is asking them to leave is valid or not." Others arrested were Ella Ruth Hunnicutt, 79, Roswell, Georgia; Minnie Ruffin, 66, Atlanta; Ann Mauney, 65, Atlanta; and Judy "Artemis" Conder, 60. Grandmothers for Peace International was founded in 1981 when Barbara Wiender, the first Grandmother for Peace, was arrested protesting the presence of nuclear weapons near her home in Sacramento, California. Today, the group conducts a variety of protests and other actions, including civil disobedience, around issues of nuclear disarmament, peace, and justice. It has offices in the U.S., Germany, Romania, South Africa, and Britain. (END/2008)
These Grandmothers for Peace were formally arrested shortly after the photo was taken. Credit:Gary Cameron/IPSATLANTA, Georgia, Mar 17 (IPS) - As part of actions across the United States to mark the fifth anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, 10 "Grandmothers for Peace", ranging in age from 57 to 80, were arrested Monday while trying to enlist in the United States Army. Acts of civil disobedience are planned this week in at least 17 other U.S. cities.As exclusively observed by IPS, the Grandmothers for Peace entered the Army Recruiting Station at the Midtown Place Shopping Centre in Atlanta, Georgia at around 9:30 am. The women broke up into three groups, each approaching a different recruiter's desk to engage them in questions. "When do you get the bonuses? Do you get them right away?" a Grandmother asked. "You guys are on a fishing expedition to catch people in lies," declared one recruiter, who said her name was "Ms. Reed". "What we're doing is, we're very much against the Iraq war. We'd like for you to let us enlist," said Bobbie Paul, 58, executive director of Atlanta Women's Action for New Directions. "We have to make sure people are physically pre-screened," said a recruiter named Kevin Wells. "Could we enlist today? So the youth don't have to go? Can you give us a list of jobs?" Paul persisted. "There are regulations we have to follow, set by the government, as far as entry and recruiting," Wells responded. "Would you take me? I'm 80," said Doris Benit of Kennesaw, Georgia. "Me personally? Absolutely! But as far as the Army, there is a process," Wells answered. "What's the first step?" Benit asked. "The first step is to have a seat," Wells said. Then, the 10 grandmothers all took seats around his desk. Meanwhile, dozens of activists were beating drums and chanting outside under a banner that read, "Take Us, Not Our Grandchildren!" "We need an application," said Gloria Tatum, 65, of the Georgia Peace and Justice Coalition, Atlanta. "I believe in action. You're doing what you can. I'm doing what I can. We're in the same direction. This country is the greatest in the world. There's many ways to do things. I'm very passionate about this country and worry where it's going. It needs you. It needs me. It needs that young man over there [IPS reporter]. It needs that kind of passion," Wells said. Then, "I want everybody outside!" Reed shouted, after calling for backup and talking with her supervisor. Finally, the Atlanta Police Department showed up. "People have 10 seconds to get off the property because it's private property or else you'll be arrested immediately," one police officer said through a loudspeaker. "We're grandmothers -- it takes us 10 seconds just to get our bones coordinated," commented Rev. Sylvia Carroll of the First Iconium Baptist Church, who was one of the 16 "support grandmothers" who did not get arrested. "I feel great. I think we made a statement this war needs to end now. [President George W. Bush and Congress] have broken international law... [and] trashed the Constitution," Tatum told IPS before getting arrested. "The police officer told me, you should take care of yourself. I've lived a full life. I want these young men to be able to do the same. We have nothing against these young people. We don't want them to die," Benit said. "I think it was a great success, in the sense we were able to stay in there as long as we were and having an exchange. We kept 'em occupied, to draw attention to ourselves. We refused to leave until they told us we were arrested," added Dot Shaw, 73, of Snellville, Georgia. "Anyone in charge?" the police asked as the women stood downstairs chanting, waiting for a police van to take them away. "We're not a battalion," Paul responded. "We insist! We enlist! Grandmothers for Peace!" they chanted. "We protest! We're under arrest!" "We're cold out here, so take us in," Benit told Officer "C. Mac." "What's jail like? Is it warm?" "Okay, hello everyone... I'm against this war as much as you. However, we still have to conduct business as usual. We have to restore a level of normalcy. We have received complaints," Officer Mac told the Grandmothers. Betsey Miklethun, 74, of Norcross, Georgia, read a letter she had written to her grandchildren before getting arrested. "This week marks the fifth anniversary... I'm gonna cry because I love them so much... of the war and occupation of Iraq. Much could be said about this, from me to you. Today I plan to participate in a nonviolent act of civil disobedience. I've never done this before," Miklethun said. "Somebody's got to stand up and say, I care." IPS asked an Army spokesperson why the Grandmothers for Peace were not allowed to enlist. "They were turned away because they were disrupting business," said Tim Humphreys, public relations for the Atlanta Recruiting Battalion. "Anyone who is serious about enlisting in the Army can go to Army.com to fill out the paperwork and can schedule an appointment. These ladies apparently were not interested in that," Humphreys said, adding the age limit is 42. Susan Keith, a board member of Atlanta Progressive News, did bring an application with her to the Recruiting Centre. "You're trying to ask a loaded question," Humphreys said. Humphreys did not return a phone call from IPS seeking additional comment. The Atlanta Police Department confirmed the arrest of the 10 Grandmothers for Peace. The women were charged with criminal trespassing, and taken to Fulton County Jail. They are expected to post bond by this evening. The crime, a misdemeanor, could carry a maximum of one year in jail, although a judge could use his or her discretion, Officer Eric Schwartz said. "They didn't say anything about them being disruptive," Schwartz said. "The owner of the property has the right to tell them they do not want them there. We don't determine whether the reason the owner is asking them to leave is valid or not." Others arrested were Ella Ruth Hunnicutt, 79, Roswell, Georgia; Minnie Ruffin, 66, Atlanta; Ann Mauney, 65, Atlanta; and Judy "Artemis" Conder, 60. Grandmothers for Peace International was founded in 1981 when Barbara Wiender, the first Grandmother for Peace, was arrested protesting the presence of nuclear weapons near her home in Sacramento, California. Today, the group conducts a variety of protests and other actions, including civil disobedience, around issues of nuclear disarmament, peace, and justice. It has offices in the U.S., Germany, Romania, South Africa, and Britain. (END/2008)
Saturday, April 28, 2007
Bono, 08/05 - Interviews - Christian Music Today
Buy this BookBono: Grace over Karmabook excerptposted 08/08/05
There have been a number of books written about U2 and their iconic frontman, Bono, arguably the world's most famous rock star. But not till now has Bono himself come out to tell his own story. In the new book, Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas (Riverhead Books), the rocker shares his thoughts on numerous topics with a French music journalist and friend who has been with the band virtually since the beginning. In a series of honest conversations presented in Q&A format, Bono discusses, among other things, his upbringing (including the death of his mother when he was a teen and the ensuing rocky relationship with his father, who died just a few years ago), U2's beginnings, his bandmates, his marriage, fatherhood, his passion for social action, the effects of celebrity, and, fittingly, his faith and how it intersects all of the above.
The following exchange between Bono and Assayas took place just days after the Madrid train bombings in March 2004, an act of terrorism that left 191 dead and more than 1,800 wounded. The two men were discussing how terrorism is often carried out in the name of religion when Bono turned the conversation to Christianity, expressing his preference for God's grace over "karma," offering an articulate apologetic for the deity of Christ, and giving a clear presentation of the gospel message.
Bono: My understanding of the Scriptures has been made simple by the person of Christ. Christ teaches that God is love. What does that mean? What it means for me: a study of the life of Christ. Love here describes itself as a child born in straw poverty, the most vulnerable situation of all, without honor. I don't let my religious world get too complicated. I just kind of go: Well, I think I know what God is. God is love, and as much as I respond [sighs] in allowing myself to be transformed by that love and acting in that love, that's my religion. Where things get complicated for me, is when I try to live this love. Now that's not so easy.
Assayas: What about the God of the Old Testament? He wasn't so "peace and love"?
Bono: There's nothing hippie about my picture of Christ. The Gospels paint a picture of a very demanding, sometimes divisive love, but love it is. I accept the Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car chases, evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass murder, adultery. The children of God are running amok, wayward. Maybe that's why they're so relatable. But the way we would see it, those of us who are trying to figure out our Christian conundrum, is that the God of the Old Testament is like the journey from stern father to friend. When you're a child, you need clear directions and some strict rules. But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross.
Assayas: Speaking of bloody action movies, we were talking about South and Central America last time. The Jesuit priests arrived there with the gospel in one hand and a rifle in the other.
Bono: I know, I know. Religion can be the enemy of God. It's often what happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building. [laughs] A list of instructions where there was once conviction; dogma where once people just did it; a congregation led by a man where once they were led by the Holy Spirit. Discipline replacing discipleship. Why are you chuckling?
Assayas: I was wondering if you said all of that to the Pope the day you met him.
Bono: Let's not get too hard on the Holy Roman Church here. The Church has its problems, but the older I get, the more comfort I find there. The physical experience of being in a crowd of largely humble people, heads bowed, murmuring prayers, stories told in stained-glass windows …
Assayas: So you won't be critical.
Bono: No, I can be critical, especially on the topic of contraception. But when I meet someone like Sister Benedicta and see her work with AIDS orphans in Addis Ababa, or Sister Ann doing the same in Malawi, or Father Jack Fenukan and his group Concern all over Africa, when I meet priests and nuns tending to the sick and the poor and giving up much easier lives to do so, I surrender a little easier.
Assayas: But you met the man himself. Was it a great experience?
Bono: … [W]e all knew why we were there. The Pontiff was about to make an important statement about the inhumanity and injustice of poor countries spending so much of their national income paying back old loans to rich countries. Serious business. He was fighting hard against his Parkinson's. It was clearly an act of will for him to be there. I was oddly moved … by his humility, and then by the incredible speech he made, even if it was in whispers. During the preamble, he seemed to be staring at me. I wondered. Was it the fact that I was wearing my blue fly-shades? So I took them off in case I was causing some offense. When I was introduced to him, he was still staring at them. He kept looking at them in my hand, so I offered them to him as a gift in return for the rosary he had just given me.
Assayas: Didn't he put them on?
Bono: Not only did he put them on, he smiled the wickedest grin you could ever imagine. He was a comedian. His sense of humor was completely intact. Flashbulbs popped, and I thought: "Wow! The Drop the Debt campaign will have the Pope in my glasses on the front page of every newspaper."
Assayas: I don't remember seeing that photograph anywhere, though.
Bono: Nor did we. It seems his courtiers did not have the same sense of humor. Fair enough. I guess they could see the T-shirts.
Later in the conversation:Assayas: I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?
Bono: Yes, I think that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma.
Assayas: I haven't heard you talk about that.
Bono: I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of Grace.
Assayas: Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me.
Bono: You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff.
Assayas: I'd be interested to hear that.
Bono: That's between me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge. I'd be in deep s---. It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity.
Assayas: The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that.
Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there's a mortality as part of your very sinful nature, and, let's face it, you're not living a very good life, are you? There are consequences to actions. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That's the point. It should keep us humbled… . It's not our own good works that get us through the gates of heaven.
Assayas: That's a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it's close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has his rank among the world's great thinkers. But Son of God, isn't that farfetched?
Bono: No, it's not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says: No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: "I'm the Messiah." I'm saying: "I am God incarnate." And people say: No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet, we can take. You're a bit eccentric. We've had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don't mention the "M" word! Because, you know, we're gonna have to crucify you. And he goes: No, no. I know you're expecting me to come back with an army, and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh, my God, he's gonna keep saying this. So what you're left with is: either Christ was who He said He was—the Messiah—or a complete nutcase. I mean, we're talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we've been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb, and had "King of the Jews" on his head, and, as they were putting him up on the Cross, was going: OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it. I'm not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me, that's farfetched …
Bono later says it all comes down to how we regard Jesus:
Bono: … [I]f only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. …When I look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my s--- and everybody else's. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was He just a religious nut? And there it is, and that's the question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it.
From Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas, by Michka Assayas, copyright © 2005 by Michka Awwayas. Used by permission of Riverhead Books, an imprint of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. For online information about other Penguin Group (USA) books and authors, see the website at http://www.penguin.com/.
(Note: While the book includes numerous passages of Bono discussing his Christian faith, it also includes occasional salty language from both parties.)
Copyright © Christian Music Today. Click for reprint information.
Buy this BookBono: Grace over Karmabook excerptposted 08/08/05
There have been a number of books written about U2 and their iconic frontman, Bono, arguably the world's most famous rock star. But not till now has Bono himself come out to tell his own story. In the new book, Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas (Riverhead Books), the rocker shares his thoughts on numerous topics with a French music journalist and friend who has been with the band virtually since the beginning. In a series of honest conversations presented in Q&A format, Bono discusses, among other things, his upbringing (including the death of his mother when he was a teen and the ensuing rocky relationship with his father, who died just a few years ago), U2's beginnings, his bandmates, his marriage, fatherhood, his passion for social action, the effects of celebrity, and, fittingly, his faith and how it intersects all of the above.
The following exchange between Bono and Assayas took place just days after the Madrid train bombings in March 2004, an act of terrorism that left 191 dead and more than 1,800 wounded. The two men were discussing how terrorism is often carried out in the name of religion when Bono turned the conversation to Christianity, expressing his preference for God's grace over "karma," offering an articulate apologetic for the deity of Christ, and giving a clear presentation of the gospel message.
Bono: My understanding of the Scriptures has been made simple by the person of Christ. Christ teaches that God is love. What does that mean? What it means for me: a study of the life of Christ. Love here describes itself as a child born in straw poverty, the most vulnerable situation of all, without honor. I don't let my religious world get too complicated. I just kind of go: Well, I think I know what God is. God is love, and as much as I respond [sighs] in allowing myself to be transformed by that love and acting in that love, that's my religion. Where things get complicated for me, is when I try to live this love. Now that's not so easy.
Assayas: What about the God of the Old Testament? He wasn't so "peace and love"?
Bono: There's nothing hippie about my picture of Christ. The Gospels paint a picture of a very demanding, sometimes divisive love, but love it is. I accept the Old Testament as more of an action movie: blood, car chases, evacuations, a lot of special effects, seas dividing, mass murder, adultery. The children of God are running amok, wayward. Maybe that's why they're so relatable. But the way we would see it, those of us who are trying to figure out our Christian conundrum, is that the God of the Old Testament is like the journey from stern father to friend. When you're a child, you need clear directions and some strict rules. But with Christ, we have access in a one-to-one relationship, for, as in the Old Testament, it was more one of worship and awe, a vertical relationship. The New Testament, on the other hand, we look across at a Jesus who looks familiar, horizontal. The combination is what makes the Cross.
Assayas: Speaking of bloody action movies, we were talking about South and Central America last time. The Jesuit priests arrived there with the gospel in one hand and a rifle in the other.
Bono: I know, I know. Religion can be the enemy of God. It's often what happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building. [laughs] A list of instructions where there was once conviction; dogma where once people just did it; a congregation led by a man where once they were led by the Holy Spirit. Discipline replacing discipleship. Why are you chuckling?
Assayas: I was wondering if you said all of that to the Pope the day you met him.
Bono: Let's not get too hard on the Holy Roman Church here. The Church has its problems, but the older I get, the more comfort I find there. The physical experience of being in a crowd of largely humble people, heads bowed, murmuring prayers, stories told in stained-glass windows …
Assayas: So you won't be critical.
Bono: No, I can be critical, especially on the topic of contraception. But when I meet someone like Sister Benedicta and see her work with AIDS orphans in Addis Ababa, or Sister Ann doing the same in Malawi, or Father Jack Fenukan and his group Concern all over Africa, when I meet priests and nuns tending to the sick and the poor and giving up much easier lives to do so, I surrender a little easier.
Assayas: But you met the man himself. Was it a great experience?
Bono: … [W]e all knew why we were there. The Pontiff was about to make an important statement about the inhumanity and injustice of poor countries spending so much of their national income paying back old loans to rich countries. Serious business. He was fighting hard against his Parkinson's. It was clearly an act of will for him to be there. I was oddly moved … by his humility, and then by the incredible speech he made, even if it was in whispers. During the preamble, he seemed to be staring at me. I wondered. Was it the fact that I was wearing my blue fly-shades? So I took them off in case I was causing some offense. When I was introduced to him, he was still staring at them. He kept looking at them in my hand, so I offered them to him as a gift in return for the rosary he had just given me.
Assayas: Didn't he put them on?
Bono: Not only did he put them on, he smiled the wickedest grin you could ever imagine. He was a comedian. His sense of humor was completely intact. Flashbulbs popped, and I thought: "Wow! The Drop the Debt campaign will have the Pope in my glasses on the front page of every newspaper."
Assayas: I don't remember seeing that photograph anywhere, though.
Bono: Nor did we. It seems his courtiers did not have the same sense of humor. Fair enough. I guess they could see the T-shirts.
Later in the conversation:Assayas: I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?
Bono: Yes, I think that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma.
Assayas: I haven't heard you talk about that.
Bono: I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of Grace.
Assayas: Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me.
Bono: You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It's clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the universe. I'm absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that "as you reap, so you will sow" stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff.
Assayas: I'd be interested to hear that.
Bono: That's between me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge. I'd be in deep s---. It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity.
Assayas: The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that.
Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there's a mortality as part of your very sinful nature, and, let's face it, you're not living a very good life, are you? There are consequences to actions. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That's the point. It should keep us humbled… . It's not our own good works that get us through the gates of heaven.
Assayas: That's a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it's close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has his rank among the world's great thinkers. But Son of God, isn't that farfetched?
Bono: No, it's not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says: No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: "I'm the Messiah." I'm saying: "I am God incarnate." And people say: No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet, we can take. You're a bit eccentric. We've had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don't mention the "M" word! Because, you know, we're gonna have to crucify you. And he goes: No, no. I know you're expecting me to come back with an army, and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah. At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh, my God, he's gonna keep saying this. So what you're left with is: either Christ was who He said He was—the Messiah—or a complete nutcase. I mean, we're talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we've been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb, and had "King of the Jews" on his head, and, as they were putting him up on the Cross, was going: OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it. I'm not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me, that's farfetched …
Bono later says it all comes down to how we regard Jesus:
Bono: … [I]f only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. …When I look at the Cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my s--- and everybody else's. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was He just a religious nut? And there it is, and that's the question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it.
From Bono: In Conversation with Michka Assayas, by Michka Assayas, copyright © 2005 by Michka Awwayas. Used by permission of Riverhead Books, an imprint of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. For online information about other Penguin Group (USA) books and authors, see the website at http://www.penguin.com/.
(Note: While the book includes numerous passages of Bono discussing his Christian faith, it also includes occasional salty language from both parties.)
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